Author Topic: Participation  (Read 16048 times)

Offline rpollock

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Participation
« on: December 22, 2009, 05:26:13 PM »
This is probably in the top 3 topics for me in regards to BR. The annual discussion about increasing participation. We have many ideas on the table and some we have been nibbling away at. I could use some input here as to what people think will work to attract more interest.

1. Increased Internet Presence - Myself and many other others have been working on this. I would encourage everyone to make a post on on any internet chat boards where they see BR being discussed. Make it positive and invite people out to your local matches whenever possible, or even a practice session where people can see what you are up to. We also had a big push on the internet just before the Nationals and had 2 newcomers come out and shoot in Regina. In my opinion we are still the best kept secret in the precision shooting sports!

2. Canada Wide Nationals, or Canadian SS - Just like you see in the other thread, this has been discussed many times and most would welcome a return of at least one these events. The question is how do we make it happen?

3. Separate factory class or tactical class? - We tried this at Rosebud this year and had 3 newcomers come out and shoot with us. Not sure if any will become long term enthusiasts, but I doesn't hurt to have them come out. How do we turn the casual interest into long term interest?

4. Technical Clinic? - There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about BR and what it is, and how to get into it. Perhaps a few schools or clinics could be run, similar to what they do in the US?

5. Related to #1, A video we can put up on Youtube - I may shoot some video this spring and summer and make a dvd and online clip that showcases or explains what BR is all about. What I have seen on Youtube has not been all that great in regards to explaining BR. If anyone else has some video they would care to shoot, let me know and we should be able to get a variety of clips together.

All for now, but I sincerely want to see some ideas from our group. It is really up to us.

Offline rpollock

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Re: Participation
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2009, 05:28:04 PM »
JohnVM Said:
I got interested after reading Glen Newicks book and going to a short seminar on BR shooting at a gun store opening. How I got started was by invitation to a shoot by my gun smith. Up till then I had no idea that I lived in the middle of 6 BR ranges in Ontario at the time. Nobody at any of the gun clubs I had gone to knew anything about BR any where near. Factory class was an easy way for me to try the game out and to get used to shooting five record shots while reading the flags(well I tried to read them). The thing about factory class was that you will only have a few shooters in this class as when they have a year or two experience they either move up or quit.
Probably one of the better ways would be to advertise at local gun shops and give a date of when the next shoot is and a number of someone willing to help or coach as well as this site were they can ask questions.

rpollock said:
John,
You makes some great points. The one that jumps out is the gun store seminar. I hadn't thought about that. I really like the seminar or class room idea where we could cover the very basics of BR, there is no reason this couldn't be done at a store. We have to face the idea that BR to an outsider is quite intimidating, it was for me, somehow we need to break that barrier down, a school would help in that regard.

Course of fire, rules, scoring, reloading, gun handling could all be covered in an afternoon. Followed up with a few groups out of an actual BR rifle would go a long way to getting people involved. You may have to split the classroom session from the range session.

We may be looking for that 1/100 or 1/1000 rifle enthusiast who can be brought over from casual shooting, or live varmint shooting that wants more to his weekend of shooting, something more rewarding than plinking or blown up critters.

I know they are out there!


John VM said:
I think one of the key things is for people to know it exists, where to go and when, as well as a "go to person" for questions you wouldn't want to ask as a new guy on a public forum. Face it, in BR we do things different than most other competitions and some of the questions may seem silly but they are real. It will take some patience at times but their are others out there that love accuracy.

Joem said:
An old time shooter in Seattle once told me "you can't make people shoot BR ,if they want to shoot, they will find you " that being said you have to let them know where you are, who you are , by visiting gunshops around town and letting them know you shoot BR at so snd so club also when your at the range talk to people aboutBR and your odd rifles.

Tony Gauthier said:
Maybe we should get a table at the easter gun show in Calgary and do some promoting?

DanO said:
I am planning to have a table at the Calgary show, due to the product that I sell, I usually have my BR rifle on display and some targets to show what is possible.
I along with Jeff spend a lot of time discussing BR with folks, so far it has not produced much in positive results for my part, but then again the time may be spent talking with folks that already have some knowledge of this sport and not new ones.

If there are any promotional items for the sport, I would be glad to make room for them on the table. Tony if you have something for the Rosebud Range you would have a captive audieance from the area.

Rick, I like your idea of some sort of a promo video, any ideas of how you/we could make this happen?

rpollock said:
Dan,
Pretty easy actually, just need to shoot some video this spring or summer, edit, then upload to Youtube. Editing and uploading can be done in about 1-2 days to produce a 5 min video. I was planning to do this when/if the range is clear of snow.

cyanchycki said:
Dan, Rick, those are some good ideas you have there. Maybe next year if I can get a table set up at the Brandon Gun Show that could be an idea.

Tony Gauthier said:
I have some video from Rosebud.

rpollock said:
Is it in digital format? Either on a mini DV tape or on a memory card or chip?


« Last Edit: December 22, 2009, 09:29:35 PM by rpollock »

Offline Tony Gauthier

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Re: Participation
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2009, 08:54:49 AM »
I have it on DVD. I posted some links to some of it that I have on photobucket. I can lend you the dvd if you like.

Offline rpollock

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Re: Participation
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2009, 09:37:02 AM »
I have it on DVD. I posted some links to some of it that I have on photobucket. I can lend you the dvd if you like.

Hang onto to it Tony. When I get to that project I will see if we can easily pull the files from the DVD. You should look into uploading your files to Youtube, I haven't tried it, but apparently it is quite easy. Label them Rosebud Benchrest so anybody searching Rosebud or Benchrest on Youtube will find them.

Offline Tony Gauthier

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Re: Participation
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2009, 09:55:00 AM »
Thanks Rick I'll do that over the next few day's. I have to shove some bread crumbs up a turkey's butt today so don't want to get the key board all sticky.

Offline Bill Leeper

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Re: Participation
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2009, 10:28:45 PM »
Rick,
This website will undoubtedly go a long way toward increasing participation. The disemmination of information related to benchrest is beneficial and so is the give and take on various forums.
One problem which is everpresent and even increasing is the expense related to competition. This applies to everything from equipment to components to the cost of travel.  Another problem is what one might call the "intimidation factor". People are convinced they will have to (a) spend major bucks on a rifle and optics and (b) always shoot little tiny groups. Neither situation is always true. It is possible to have fancy equipment and shoot big groups and it is possible to have slightly pedestrian equipment and shoot respectably well.
Another problem I have noticed at some of the matches I have attended is the seeming inability of some shooters to just shoot their match. Their actions and behaviour don't just lean towards poor sportsmanship but are perfect examples of it. In addition, the concept of gentlemanly behaviour has apparently been cast aside over the last couple of decades. I know this is largely reflective of society as a whole but a bit of effort at good manners would help to attract and keep shooters. In years long past, there were always some shooters whose language could be described as "colourful". In those days these people were mostly the exception and, perhaps, tolerated because of it. Nowadays, the use of vulgarity is overwhelming ( and I don't say I've never been guilty) and I know it is offensive to some who would attend the matches. It shows a lack of respect for others and it's reduction would help to attract new shooters. Really!
As I said, this website will do a lot and Rick, you are to be commended for your work in setting this up.   Regards,   Bill.


Offline cyanchycki

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Re: Participation
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2009, 07:29:27 AM »
Hi Bill good to see your thoughts and comments.  You make valid points in regards to cost of the sport be it rifle ,components, or the cost of traveling.  

Those who want to compete and know of the expenses involved will go above and beyond to make it affordable or find ways to have the money to do so.  I work overtime at my 8-5 job whenever I can and put ALL that money towards my hobby.  

I will sleep in my Ford Ranger while driving to a match catching cat naps along the way to save on hotel rooms.  A place like Rosebud I slept on my portable bed in the clubhouse just bringing a cooler of food, small propane stove and light.  I grew up with the bare minimums as a kid and I can still live that way.  I may not smell the best after a day or two but I look at it as an advantage...... :o

I think one of the key factors is COMMITMENT to the sport.  Those who love it will find ways to be able to shoot.

It is unfortunate that there are a lot of people who are very intimidated by the race guns we shoot at the matches.  I have heard from the few people I have tried to get into the sport say, "will I be competitve".  Who cares.  Come out and shoot and learn about the game.  There are a lot of semi custom guns out there that shoot pretty well.  Maybe some will be quite shocked to learn how well they may do.  I go to matches not expecting to win but to learn more and maybe the end result is a win or 2 over a weekend.  If not I had fun doing so. 

If one wants to win they better have a race gun, be able to tune and stay in tune , and shoot the wind and mirage well.  
 
« Last Edit: December 25, 2009, 07:42:06 AM by cyanchycki »
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Offline Tony Gauthier

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Re: Participation
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2009, 08:25:33 AM »
 " I may not smell the best after a day or two"
Now we know why you have all that trouble with wasps!!!!!! ::)

Offline rpollock

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Re: Participation
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2009, 10:43:17 AM »
Rick,
This website will undoubtedly go a long way toward increasing participation. The disemmination of information related to benchrest is beneficial and so is the give and take on various forums.
One problem which is everpresent and even increasing is the expense related to competition. This applies to everything from equipment to components to the cost of travel.  Another problem is what one might call the "intimidation factor". People are convinced they will have to (a) spend major bucks on a rifle and optics and (b) always shoot little tiny groups. Neither situation is always true. It is possible to have fancy equipment and shoot big groups and it is possible to have slightly pedestrian equipment and shoot respectably well.
Another problem I have noticed at some of the matches I have attended is the seeming inability of some shooters to just shoot their match. Their actions and behaviour don't just lean towards poor sportsmanship but are perfect examples of it. In addition, the concept of gentlemanly behaviour has apparently been cast aside over the last couple of decades. I know this is largely reflective of society as a whole but a bit of effort at good manners would help to attract and keep shooters. In years long past, there were always some shooters whose language could be described as "colourful". In those days these people were mostly the exception and, perhaps, tolerated because of it. Nowadays, the use of vulgarity is overwhelming ( and I don't say I've never been guilty) and I know it is offensive to some who would attend the matches. It shows a lack of respect for others and it's reduction would help to attract new shooters. Really!
As I said, this website will do a lot and Rick, you are to be commended for your work in setting this up.   Regards,   Bill.



Great points Bill. I still think BR is one of the best kept secrets in the shooting world. I hope the website and this forum will go a long ways to improving that situation. We have to embrace fact and make it work for us, that in almost any endeavor people will turn to the internet first.

The equipment hurdle in BR is tough. What I tell people is that they don't have to buy everything the first day. A re-barreled Rem and a varmint scope can get people going. Most of the equipment people see on the line, the shooters have taken years to accumulate. The idea that BR is an equipment race is still out there. The reality that BR is a wind reading contest at the end of the day, escapes the casual observer. The equipment allows the shooter to get on the playing field, the rest is up to him/her.

I agree with you, I don't think it is too much to ask for people to keep the language down to a dull roar. Especially on the line and loading areas, as it can be distracting for your fellow competitors. I am guilty of it and will make an effort to keep it down.

The other idea that is out there is that people want to be competitive the first day, doesn't work in BR or any other competitive sport for that matter. I am not sure how to deal with this, since I still finish last after 15 years of this!
« Last Edit: December 25, 2009, 10:46:57 AM by rpollock »

Offline gyeomans

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Re: Participation
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2010, 05:00:55 PM »
You want to talk about getting more participation in BR shooting, well we've been trying to do exactly that for the last three years at the Campbell River Gun Club. 

Three years ago we decided to build up a BR section in the CRGC.  There was a core group of guys who liked to shoot groups and thought we would like to have matches.  Dennis Tipper(VP) and myself started to put on monthly "BR Fun Shoots".  For prizes we gave the winner 1/2 the relay entry fee.   We thought that we had to have it "FUN and CHEAP" in order to bring out new shooters.

The CRGC has a number of separate ranges so utilizing the 200m or the 600yd range for our matches did not put anyone out.   We soon had interest in shooting longer range so we fixed up the 600 yd covered firing point and started to hold all our matches there.  We built 10 heavy steel tube legged/plywood top benches and started to have a variety of short range and long range shoots.  The idea was to have informal fun shoots so that we would attract new shooters and then get them hooked on shooting little bitty groups, and then move on to regular BR matches.

We started out with a Factory class and a Custom class, no restrictions on scopes.  Factory was just that, gun bedded, trigger adjusted.  Most were varmint rifles.  Custom class was anything goes but rail guns.  Most Custom guns were rebarreled factory actions on BR stocks & aftermarket triggers, with the occasional full custom actioned BR gun.  Most guys had old Witchita, Caldwell, homemade or sandbag rests.  We had between 5 to 14 guys showing up, the most at our Turkey shoots.  Well, soon an unintentional arms race started, and the newest BR guns were cleaning up Custom class.  So we created a third class, Custom Factory.  A factory action that could have everything done to it.

We shoot 10 relays/class, all at the same time.  If you shoot two guns, we put up two targets at the same time.  We shoot a variety of targets, from BR group targets at 100, 200 & 300 yds, Hunter Bench score targets, Marmots for score and group at 200, 300 & 500 yds, Black Death, typewriter, circles for score, Dart board, one shot for specific position targets like gophers, crows, grouse, etc.   After a couple of years, we tried easing into a 5 shot - 5 target 100 & 200 yd BR format, but guys did not like it.  We had two shoots with that format, asked for suggestions and were told overwhelmingly to go back to the old multi-target format.  Guys liked variety, fun, and informality.  Sounds like a male sexual fantasy.

Now, most guys shoot 2 guns.  There are BAT, Stiller, Swindlehurst, Nesika, Witchita, Angel, Hart actioned custom guns.  Lots of Rem 700 Custom Factory guns and a whole multitude of Factory varmint rifles.  Sinclar, Witchita, Caldwell, homemade and a JJ rest.  No joysticks yet.   We've modified targets and improved our logistics so that we can start at 10:00am and be done at 3:30pm, with a free lunch thrown in as well. 

We get 9 shooters average every month with 5 being the core ones every time.   I would say that of the 25 or so shooters that come out to our shoots, 5 of them would come regularly to shoot a "normal" BR format.  That's out of a 370 member club and a draw area of approx 90,000 people.  Also, the CRGC has a long history of International Rifle competitors.  We've sent rifle shooters to the Olympics, Bisley, National and other International competitions for over 40 yrs.  The BR section profited $1800 for the CRGC last year.  So what does the CRGC want?  5 guys or 9 guys, average, shooting once a month?  The group shooters will have to travel or shoot on another day to just shoot groups.


Some do's and don'ts-
 
-Do not post your best targets on the range wall for everyone to see after the shoot is over.  People look at them and think, " I'm not going to bring out my Savage .223 gopher gun to shoot against these guys!  I'll look stupid." 
-Limit factory guns to max 24x scopes.  Most people have 6-24 or so varmint scopes on their factory varmint rifles.  Its not really fair to shoot a 24x against a 36x all other things equal.  Make it a fair competition equipment wise, with everyone evenly exposed to the uncontrollable variables.   
-Don't have boring targets.  Have lots but make them challenging.   Everyone likes reactionary targets.  I tried bringing in some Tannerite, but got stopped at the border.  Made up some BP incendiaries.   After the shoot is over I put out full pop cans, water filled milk jugs, clay birds, etc, at 300-500 yds. Everyone has ammo left over, so we let them blast away for free & have fun.  We're making up 120 steel gopher swingers so that we can have a Vancouver Island Gopher Shoot.  Charge $20 and shoot all day at gophers out to 600yds.  Maybe new shooters will come, meet some of the BR shooters and want to come and try BR.
-Have small coaching sessions during the shoot.  Talk about reloading, calibers, gear, wind flags, wind switches, light changes, mirage, etc.

I'm about done.  Two finger typing is a long process.  The down and dirty is that there is a very, very small % of people that want to try and shoot little groups all the time.  So, you have to attract the larger # of semi-precision type of shooter who shoot factory varmint rifles, identify the real accuracy junkies, let them shoot your best gun and then they're hooked.

There's always more ways to skin a cat, and that's one use this forum will be good for.  Disseminating info.  Thanks Rick, good job.

Cheers
Greg

Offline rpollock

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Re: Participation
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2010, 06:38:37 PM »
Great post Greg! Thanks for taking the time to two finger type it out! You have some great advice there for anybody looking to generate interest at their own club. I agree that a lot (almost all?) of the interest will come from the ranks of the varmint shooters and casual accuracy enthusiasts. There is a lot of satisfaction for the shooters as they progress through the iterations of factory, custom, BR etc rifles, plus refine their own shooting skills. It needs to be a good time all around or people won't come back. Your matches remind me a great deal of the Sundays at the Barnett range in BC shooting flies with Joe Mendham and his legions of followers  :) (myself included). That sort of informal event has provided the slippery slope upon which many of us have fallen down, never to recover.





Offline Joe Mendham

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Re: Participation
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2010, 08:15:08 PM »
 Yea Rick those were the good old days at the Barnett club in Burnaby. I think at some shoots we had 20 guys there . All trying to shoot the perfect score on fly targets then the quick dash down the road to the coffee shop for some serious shooting.

 We had mostly BR guns at those shoots as we were fortunate to have Nobby Uno living in the area then and you could get work done on your gun quickly and didn't have to mail it away across the country. Lots of guys had Remington 700s glued into BR stocks with Hart barrels and they shot very good , now a days you wouldn't find anybody shooting a Remington thinking they'd have to have the custom action to start with. But you can aways get someone hooked by getting them to build their first BR gun on a Remington , then when they get the itch to improve they can go for the custom gun.

 So it helps if you have someone locally to put the guns together , have local shoots and a good core of local shooters to guide/push the newer shooters along towards the goal of a full blown BR shooter

  Joe
 










Offline SpencerC

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Re: Participation
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2010, 03:17:22 PM »
I'm my opinion as a new, green shooter, the idea of a clinic would be great. The best thing about that, is that it would cover all competitive rifle shooting, no matter the discipline. Everyone needs to learn how to read conditions/flags, or some of the intricacies of loading match ammo, different styles of equipment etc.. It is kind of intimidating to see the "regulars" equipment on the line when you bring your close to factory rifle out and shoot. What there should be is a newbie class, for people who are just starting with 0-1 year experience. It would take some of the stress out of trying to compete with a full on build and let some people get hooked on the idea of getting the most out of what you have without spending a whole bunch of money, which is hard to come by these days for some. Anyway, that's just my small view on the subject.

Once you get out there and there is even just one guy that takes the extra time to help the new guy out, makes a BIG difference, sometimes it takes some extra patience lol, but it will definitely be worth your time if you are looking at keeping/getting new people into the sport.

Offline rpollock

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Re: Participation
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2010, 09:08:58 PM »
Spencer what range do you shoot at?

Rick

Offline SpencerC

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Re: Participation
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2010, 03:04:50 PM »
Currently I only do F-class in PEI, but in the quest for the most accuracy out of myself and my equipment, why not hang out around the guys that shoot the smallest groups around? Some say their rifle is accurate "enough" for f-class, I personally can't stand that frame of mind, if your going to compete in something, don't you want to try and be the best?

One day I would love to try true BR shooting, but currently the budget is on the low side for another build. There also isn't anywhere in the maritimes that I know of that does BR matches. I could be wrong?

Offline rpollock

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Re: Participation
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2010, 04:21:59 PM »
Spencer,

I am not aware of any sanctioned BR shooting in the Maritimes. It is really simple to hold an informal score shoot just using the 5-bull score targets. Our friends in Campbell River BC hold informal score shoots and draw a good crowd. No reason you couldn't be the first to hold matches in the Maritimes. Just run a "run what you brung" event at first and if the numbers increase then you can look at separating into a stock and a custom class.

If you happen to travel this summer, then by all means let us know on this board where you will be, and hopefully we can hook you up with someone in the area to push you down the BR slope.

First hit is free....

Rick

Offline SpencerC

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Re: Participation
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2010, 07:44:52 PM »
Hmm, the only range we have over 100 yards is the DND range, so tables would have to be brought on site if we wanted to do 100 and 200 yard. Is there a rulebook anywhere that I can download and look at? For the first couple outings, it would be pretty informal, but it would be nice to have a baseline to go by. Also, what is a good source for targets? What is the standard firing sequence, 2 sighters 10 for score? Is there downloadable/printable ones?

 There is a pretty good chance of going to Ontario in the summer, so if any in Ontario wants to be the "pusher man" I'd love to come out and see what it's all about :)

Offline rpollock

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Re: Participation
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2010, 08:08:55 PM »
Hmm, the only range we have over 100 yards is the DND range, so tables would have to be brought on site if we wanted to do 100 and 200 yard. Is there a rulebook anywhere that I can download and look at? For the first couple outings, it would be pretty informal, but it would be nice to have a baseline to go by. Also, what is a good source for targets? What is the standard firing sequence, 2 sighters 10 for score? Is there downloadable/printable ones?

 There is a pretty good chance of going to Ontario in the summer, so if any in Ontario wants to be the "pusher man" I'd love to come out and see what it's all about :)

100 yds is plenty to get things going. Much harder than it sounds. Rules for score shooting (hunter and varmint hunter classes) can be found here http://internationalbenchrest.com/index.php or http://nbrsa.org/ and can be downloaded. Targets can also be found there. I would not get too hung up on the rules just yet, as the idea would be to get participation going first. Just hang a score target every 10 minutes and have people blaze away at it. 5 bulls on each target, 5 targets (25 bulls in total), 1 shot on each record bull, and unlimited sighters. Highest score wins.

There are quite a few BR guys in Ontario, hopefully we can coordinate a trip to the range with a local shooter when you are out there.

Offline rpollock

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Re: Participation
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2010, 09:28:48 AM »
Spencer,

Looks like you are getting good feedback on CGN in regards to holding a match in the Maritimes. Be sure and let me know if you do get a match going so we can promote it here and on benchrest.ca

Rick

Offline Gord O.

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Re: Participation
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2010, 06:42:57 PM »
Just joined the forum tonight. Thanks Rick for all your work in getting this up and going.
The posting on "Participation" is timely and speaks to the reality of a future in the shooting sports in general.
I started into BR shooting after visiting a match in SW Ontario as a guest of a current BR shooter.I had no idea how addicting the
search for that .000 could be or how much I was to learn from the "gang".
I came from a background of hunting and my trips into Varminting lead to my increased search for precision.I had seen the BR display table at the local gun shows,interesting ,but never hit home til I was "invited" to attend. I had got involved(again by "invite') in Precision Rifle SR Matches and finally after my "visit" to a BR match ,I was hooked.
Same thing happened with the ORA &  DCRA in their Precision Rifle Matches and F Class Matches. I was aware of them but it wasn't until I was "invited" to attend a match by a fellow shooter, that I participated and again got hooked.

The one thing ALL the shooting sports in Canada needs is a continuing growth of new participants to ensure a future of shooting competitions in Canada.

In all the discussions held at meetings I have attended in BR, TR, FClass, PR, the same sense of urgency for new and continued growth is prevalent.
Since I don't know the answers, I simply have made the commitment to introduce ("invite" and drag) at least 1 new shooter out to every event I participate in. Not always successful, I can say that I have been able to account for some new members coming into each and every sport I shoot.
On the larger scale, I've heard some great ideas. I hope they work.
On the smaller individual scale, I suggest that maybe we each take on the role and individually "mentor in" a new shooter and keep trying cause some of them will get bitten just like I did.

Glad to join in with you all.
Gord O.


 

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