Backers

[gyeomans]

Can you use stationary backers set back 3'-5' behind the group targets and get distinctive 5 separate bullet holes?  It'll save me from making a moving backer system.

I'm going to try and get our guys to shoot a regular BR match instead of fun stuff.  I'll probably have to run another monthly shoot as there's only 5-8 guys that want to shoot pure groups.

Cheers
Greg

[cyanchycki]

Greg in reality the only time the moving backer system is required as per the NBRSA rulebook is at REGISTERED SHOOTS.

At the NBRSA Nationals there is the moving backer system as well as the Stationary backers at 36" for 100 yards and 72" for 200 yards.

I would think if you did the backers at 72" at 100 yards should help out more than 36".

I look at it this way, if a person has to cheat to win they are WORTHLESS in my competitive arena.

Maybe when Gammon gets back or the guys from Alberta who have shot at bigger matches would have a better idea.  There is always benchrest.com as well for an answer.

GREAT to hear that some of the guys want a full blown group shoot.  Good Luck.

Calvin

[gyeomans]

Thanks for that info Calvin. 
I think you're right about the 72"@ 100yds.   
I don't believe any of our guys would cheat but backers are there for a reason.

Cheers
Greg

[Bill Gammon]

The biggest problem of a backer at 72" or whatever is the fact that everytime you change targets you would have to tape up the holes or replace the backer for the next shooter. At WWCCA we have a replacement card for the moving backer and the 3 person target crew can change targets, that is pull the existing targets, replace the targets with new ones, and pull the removeable backer, replace the backer card, in 3 to 4 mins and that is on a 18 bench range. If you had 18 benches with a backer system at 72" how long would it take to tape up the holes?? Don't forget 18 X 5 = "90" The "SAD" fact is you have people who will shoot 3 shots and put the other 2 in the dirt, trust me when I tell you this, I have seen it. Secondly some shooters forget how many shots they have actually fired, it happens, is that person trying to cheat?? I don't think so. To end my take on this, moving backers are required.
P.S.
I will be in Little Rock AK for a week or so then back to Detroit for another week, but I will have internet access, I hope!! If you want I will take a bunch of pictures of backer systems here but I think you have more then enough expertise out there.

[cyanchycki]

Bill, YES take some pictures of the moving backer system.  It would be a good source of info for future reference.  I will have to take pictures of the one at Selkirk which I believe uses a windshield wiper motor.

Calvin

[Tony Gauthier]

We use a wiper motor at Rosebud, but if you were going to buid a backer system get Ratigans book and build the backer a lot of ranges are using now. He has a complete section on the system and that is the way Rosebud is thinking of going.Simple to build and easy to set up! You would need to run power to the 100 and 200 yd berms, or haul a generator around.

[Bill Gammon]

I will take a lot of very detailed pictures of the system at WWCCA which is the same as Kelbly's Super Shoot. The system in Mike's book is about the same at Holton and it can get complicated, trust me I have worked on both of them. The biggest problem with the swinging arm design it creates 2 dead spots. One when the arm swings down and then back up. It doesn't look like much but it is there. The design that Kelbly's uses is a relay switch on the drive unit. It goes back and forth without the dead spots. Also on the swing arm at Holton we had to use roughly 125 lbs of weight on the end to get it to come back.

[gyeomans]

No need here for photos Bill, but thanks for the offer.  I've seen photos of a couple of moving backer systems and I have Ratigans book.  One was a drum type paper holder that rotated continously, the other a  big flat paper clamp that cycled back and forth.  Nobby Uno told me of one that used to be in Clearwater that was a single strip of butchers paper.  They had a roll at one end of the target frames and an electric winder at the other end.  They pulled out the whole strip, hooked it on and let it wind up ever so slow.  Wouldn't work for us, we get howling southeasters at about 1/3 of our shoots.  

I like the idea of mechanical moving backers but the KISS principle is the best though.

The stationary backer is the simplest system and to correct the problem Bill spoke of, why couldn't you have a manually sliding tray that holds the backer.  Have a 11"x17" backer, start close to it's bottom, at each target change move it down 1.5" or so.  Have preset holes drilled into the side of the slider frame.  Pull out the pin, reset the pin to the next level & drop down the backer on its frame.

The mechanism part to make it move isn't a problem, it's whether or not the 5 shots are displayed  clear enough and I think the NBRSA through Calvin says it is ok.

Any critique of a stationary/slider system is welcome.

Cheers
Greg

[rpollock]

Stationary backer is used to detect crossfires unless I am mistaken.

You won't be able to discern the number of shots fired using a stationary backer. It can be a challenge at 200 yds to count shots on the record target, so we often refer to the moving backer, I can't see a stationary backer at 100 yds telling you anything the target didn't. Also unless you use target paper as a stationary backer, most other papers rip too much, and let shots through the rips undetected.

My .02 but a simple moving backer for 5-10 benches won't take that much more effort than creating a stationary backer system.

[Bill Gammon]

Been at Holton for a week and now WWCCA. The system at Holton is state of the art but the problems #1 it takes 10 people a full hour to set it up, #2 those weights on each end are 75lbs a piece in order to keep it from binding up. Would I use a system like this? not really. Now the drive system at WWCCA, (not designed by me) is the exactly the same system used at Kellby's and it moves 60 backers and I have a set of pictures. The way it works is with relay switches. here is a picture of the drive, I took about 18 pictures and if someone is interested I will send them out.
Motor Specs, that I could see
RPM            50F/L
Torque            26 inch lbs
Ratio            63:1
HP            1/30th
Amp            .42

[Bill Gammon]

Here is the information on the rubbers behind the targets

Pool Liner      5ft X 6ft      40m      Cost $39.00 in the US
Got 36 pcs using a template 7 ½” X 15”
WWCCA has 18 benches set or rubbers will last a complete match, so we get 2 matches out of 1 liner. At this point in time, the Fall, if you went to the local pool outfit you could swing a deal.

[cyanchycki]

Bill is that 40 meters or 4 meters?

Send me the pictures please.

Calvin