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Messages - gyeomans

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Centerfire Discussions / Re: Quantum Mechanics & BR
« on: March 28, 2010, 11:24:53 AM »
I think what Quantum Mechanics is telling us is that our thoughts when in "tune" with the bullet or focused on the shot, will effect where it goes.  To what extent I don't know.  If someone knows a Quantum Physicist, get he/she to do the calcs and tell us how much it does effect a bullets flight.

Off Topic / Re: Bore snakes for cleaning
« on: March 28, 2010, 11:16:19 AM »
I had bought one once and then I read a gun cleaning test someone did with a boresnake and regular cleaning rods/patches/brushes.  The regular method came out cleaner.  The bore snake kept the fouling imbedded in the snake so every pass you were re-introducing fouling back into your bbl.  Carbon is pretty grittty stuff, so running a carbon impregnated boresnake through your bbl won't do it any good.

Bbls are like women.  Every one is different.  Some like it really clean, some like it really dirty.  Some are in between.  Some like 2 fouling shots, some like 5.  I shoot 6-8 different custom guns at our fun BR matches and every bbl is different.  I don't clean for 70 shots.  A couple of guns should be cleaned around 30-40 shots, I notice the accuracy dropping off.  Most of the guns stay good.  I clean with Patch Out and Accelerator, sometimes nylon brush.  With my cleaning regime, most custom bbls only need about 10 patches, no brushing to get clean.

I've read on BR Central that some .30 cal Hunter BR shooters don't clean for over 300 shots.  Their accuracy does not suffer.  .30's act differently than 6mms though, apparently easier to stay in tune.


Centerfire Discussions / Re: Quantum Mechanics & BR
« on: March 27, 2010, 03:49:00 PM »
LOL.   Rick, deep down, we're all just breedin' machines.  Its amazing we can even walk around.

I read another similar post a few yrs ago and started to record and measure DA when shooting groups.  Then my DA meter quit and I got real busy running shoots, business, family, etc and sort of forgot about it.  I still measure temp and humidity when I shoot. 

We don't shoot straight groups so the data is kind of hard to correlate with groups/tune and I really only shoot 1-2 times/month.  Our range in CR is about 1000' with the temp and humidity fairly constant.  Temp varies from -4'C to 8'C in the winter with 60-90% humidity.  Spring  & fall we get 6'C to 20'C with humidity about the same.  The one relay that we shoot 100yd groups, the group sizes are fairly consistant thoughout the year.  Then again none of us are really that good and shoot enough groups on a day to day basis to track.  Most of our shooters don't care either. 

Like I said before, I don't shoot enough groups with one gun to correlate the data.  Sometimes having too many guns is a problem.  Don't tell my wife I said that.

I went to a BR Turkey Shoot in Rock Creek, BC a few yrs ago and worked up a load there for a custom ppc and a 22-250 that I was shooting on the coast.  Rock Creek is 2010' elevation and was -5'C.  DA was 0.  In CR at 1000' and 0'C DA is approx -700.  I had to go up 1 gr of H322 in the ppc to get it to shoot and didn't change the load for the Factory Savage 22-250 at all.  Kinda inconclusive.  I do think old Beggs is right though.  DA has got to effect tune.

Another link with a handy chart. 

To answer your question  "have any of you bothered to track density altitude?" Rick, I started to but fell off the wagon


Centerfire Discussions / Re: Quantum Mechanics & BR
« on: March 27, 2010, 02:59:58 PM »
Nope, I don't think it is any different.  It's probably one explanation of why it works.  I just wonder how much it would influence a bullet.

Centerfire Discussions / Quantum Mechanics & BR
« on: March 27, 2010, 12:10:25 PM »
I know, I know,,,what kind of nut job am I.  I'm just a self employed logger/sawmiller/dirt dealer/etc., that reads alot of different stuff.  I came across an article in a science magazine years ago about Quantum Mechanics and how a persons thoughts can effect outcomes.  

I began thinking about effecting outcomes/shooting groups and did a little research and found this from a 1974 U.S. Army Ballistic Research Laboratory paper:

In quantum mechanics, reality is described by waves defining the probabilities of different outcomes from the same interactions. These waves manifest as what we have been taught to call matter, energy, particles, and/or waves when observed.

Quantum Mechanics And Consciousness
Getting back to established scientific theory, normal waking consciousness occurs when the nerve cell firing rate (synaptic switching rate) is high enough to spread out the waves associated with electrons to fill the gaps between nerve cells (synaptic clefts) with waves of probability of similar amplitude. This is described mathematically by the quantum mechanical mechanism of tunneling. These waves are interconnected throughout regions of the brain through resonances, resulting in a large, complex, unified, quantum mechanically defined resonance matrix filling a region in the brain. The waves are interconnected with each other and with information storage and sensory input mechanisms within these regions of the brain.
The nerve cell firing rate (v') at which this occurs has been modeled mathematically by Evan Harris Walker (at the U.S. Army Ballistics Center at Aberdeen Proving Ground) and corresponds to the threshold between waking and sleeping consciousness in people and animals.

Quantum Mechanics And Psychokinesis
By merely observing a phenomenon (resonating ones brain with it) one can affect the outcome, since the physical mechanisms in your brain are part of the wave matrix described by quantum mechanics. The information handling rate in resonance determines the amount of effect, along with the elapsed time of resonance and the probability distribution of the phenomenon you are observing [5]. According to Evan Harris Walker, quantum mechanical state selection can be biased by an observer if [5]:
W te is greater than or equal to -Log P(Qo-Qi) Q 2

     P(Qo-Qi) = Probability that state Qi will occur by chance  

          W   = Information handling rate in process in brain
           Q    associated with state vector selection (bits/sec)
           te = Elapsed time

            Q = Overall state vector

           Qo = Initial physical state of system    

           Qi = State that manifests "paranormal" target event
The effect of consciousness is incredibly small on macroscopic systems; but it can be measurable when it occurs on quantum mechanically defined and divergent systems, where a slight change can amplify itself as it propagates through the system. The effect is about 1E-17 degrees on the angle of the bounce of cubes going down an inclined plane. Changes in the angle of bounce result in changes in displacement of the cubes that increase about 50% on every bounce, and the effect is measurable after many bounces [6]. The theory successfully and quantitatively modeled the differing amounts of displacement observed in experiments on cubes of different weights and weight distributions

Scientific Theory
Mr. Walker's ideas and equations would only be hypotheses if it weren't for the fact that they have been tested experimentally and found to predict the results of experiments with reasonable accuracy [4,5]. The evidence meets the usual rules of proof for scientific theory, and this makes Walker's equations legitimate scientific theory.
The non-local underlying wave patterns beneath manifestations of matter and energy that we hold in common with our surroundings allow us to influence reality and to obtain information about it using the power of the mind. This underlying interconnecting pattern is the very stuff of consciousness and manifests, not only as matter & energy, but also as psychokinesis, precognition and other phenomenon that are only now beginning to be recognized and embraced by some theories of modern physics.

Implications Of Quantum Consciousness Theory
Deflections caused by consciousness are not caused by force or energy in the conventional sense; but by something more subtle, namely effects within the underlying wave structure out of which matter and energy are manifestations (collapse of the state vector) [5].
To psychically obtain information about a target or to psychically influence events, one has to have one's brain resonating with aspects of reality interconnecting the brain with the target. The more one's brain resonates with non-local aspects of reality connecting with a target, the more communication and direct influence one can have on it. The more fundamentally diverse the potential outcomes of a process targeted are, the more effect one gets from resonating ones brain with it [5]. Also, the more small changes in the system tend to amplify as larger changes in the end result, the more effect one can get. This provides an explanation of why patterns exist within seemingly random events

Walker, Evan H. The Complete Quantum Mechanical Anthropologist. U.S. Army Ballistic Research Laboratories, Aberdeen Proving ground, Maryland, presented at the 73rd Annual American Anthropological Association Meeting, Mexico City, November 19-24, 1974.

Now I'm not a good enough mathematician to do the calcs, but what this guy is saying looks like it applies to BR and shooting. Back in the '70s I was fortunate enough to get some National Coaching advise for smallbore shooting and one of the thing I remember was to visualize shooting X's..We would first calm our mind and relax our body, get a sight picture and think about shooting an X.  Focus on shooting an X.  They still use the visulization techniques today in competitive shooting and that sounds alot like using Quantum Mechanics to shoot better.

I don't know if Quantum Mechanics has enough of an impact on shooting itty bitty groups, but according to Evan Walker it does some impact.  How to refine it and use it might be as simple as really, really, really focusing on shooting all the bullets into one little hole instead of thinking about that cute waitress at Timmy's this morning.

Something else to think about


Club Events / Re: BR shoot in Bouctouche, NB
« on: March 23, 2010, 07:50:15 PM »
Hi Spencer, targets are on the way.  Let me know if you have any questions regarding them.

Centerfire Discussions / Re: Targets - which to get?
« on: March 21, 2010, 07:46:27 PM »
Hey Spencer, send me your address and I'll send you all the ones we shoot in Campbell River.  500 yd flies as well as Groundhogs for group and score.  We have around 30 different targets for different distances.

Club Events / Re: BR shoot in Bouctouche, NB
« on: March 21, 2010, 07:24:50 PM »
Hi from the "Wet" Coast, oh I meant the West Coast.  We've been running informal BR matches in Campbell River for the last 3 yrs.  Started from nothing, like you are now, and we now have an average of 11 shooters/shoot showing up 10 times/yr.  We shoot out to 500yds when there isn't too much snow and the sou'easters aren't blowing too bad.   Some things we do:

-we use shipping pallets for target holders at 200, 300, 400 500.  Cheap and easy to setup & replace.  Put 'em all in a row with legs on the back to stand them up, staple your cardboard across and staple your targets on.  It's not fancy but it works.  We have regular target holders at 100 and 600

-make it fun.  make it fair.  Guys/gals won't come back if it's no fun and they think it wasn't fair.  Shooting a factory Remington against a full custom BAT is not fair.  Have some refilled 500ml water bottles & at the end of the shoot put them out at varying distances.  Let guys have at'er.  Free & Cheap reactive targets always brings a smile to a shooters face.

-we don't use moving backers at 100 & 200.  It's a trust thing.  I'm pretty sure we're all there for the fun, evan though we're shooting for money.  I've thought of placing backers 3-5' behind the group targets in order to get a slightly different angle on the holes, but so far have seen no need.

-start at 100 yds with sighters and whatever.  Get everybody zeroed.  Have a ballistics table out of a reloading book available for reference.

-we jump out to 500yds right away.  We've found that shooting 500 yds at 3:00pm makes for a sumb_tch for seeing your shots.  At 10:30am you can see your bullets holes.  My eyes aren't the best, but I can see .22 cal holes at 500 with a 24x Leupold. Most people can see their holes with 36x Weavers, etc.

-we use a 28'x22" flourescent yellow/green sighter sheet with an aiming point drawn on, near the top.  It is poster board bought at a dollar store.  I'll post a pic of our 500 yd sighters.  You can see how they walked their shots in.  I'm pretty sure this will work at 600yds if there's not any mirage.

-we shoot a marmot/groundhog target for score and group at 500, 300 and 200.  You can see your holes in the white at 500 on the marmot target, but not in the black.   Sometimes we shoot eggs at 300 or 400.  We shoot flies at 500 & 100.  There are a bunch of other targets we shoot at 100, 200, 300 and 400 as well.  I can send you copies if you send me your address

- we run 3 classes of guns, Factory-bedded and trigger adjusted,  Custom Factory-factory action with everything else modded, and Custom-full blown custom guns.  No restrictions on scopes or weights.  We had one gun in Custom Factory that weighed 18 lbs and was cleaning up for a couple of shoots, so I asked him if he would mind shooting in the custom class, he did and competes favorably with those guns.

-we shoot 10 relays/class.  $2 entry fee/relay.  Winner of relay gets 1/2 the entry fee for that relay class.  I run a 50/50 draw with 1,2 & 3rd prizes.  Some relay winners give their winnings back to the club to fund improvements.  I went to the cash prizes 'cause most people like to win something and I didn't feel like getting trophies.  The cash prize also makes it easy hand out and to be fair.  If there's only 2 people in a class, then the winner gets $2.  If there is 5 people in a class, then the winner gets $5

I don't know if we're doing the right things, but people keep coming back and seem to have a smile when they leave.  We're always looking for improvements and new targets.  If you have questions, ask away.  I might have some ideas.  


Club Events / Re: Benchrest for score at Mission B.C.
« on: March 13, 2010, 11:00:54 AM »
Those unseen winds between the 100 and 200 yd backstops will do it to you everytime.  Our thanks to Joe for putting on the shoot from the Campbell River crowd.

Joe cleaning and Lowell wondering

Dennis wondering as well


Centerfire Discussions / Re: 6br for target + varminting, twist rate
« on: February 26, 2010, 10:59:42 AM »
Randy, the 8 twist is what you want to shoot the 105/107's out at 600yds and it will be just as accurate at 200-300yds with those bullets.  If you're wanting to shoot lighter (70gr?) varmint bullets at shorter range, the 8 twist will stabilize them, just not as good as the longer bullets.  It should stabilize the lighter bullets at least 1/2 minute of gopher.

A friend is shooting 68gr Barts out of a Savage 6br 8 twist at our BR matches and they shoot 1/2" to 3/4" at 100 yds

I've got a 8 twist 22-250 that likes the 80 gr BergersVLD"S.  It will shoot 55gr Vmax into 5/8"

Good Luck

Off Topic / Re: ATF Form 6NIA questions
« on: January 26, 2010, 08:39:04 AM »
Thanks guys, answers all my questions.

Off Topic / ATF Form 6NIA questions
« on: January 25, 2010, 09:52:49 PM »
I'm filling out an ATF 6NIA form for the first time and am wondering about what to put down for "Ammunition".   I'm going to be taking in reloads.  6ppc, .223, 22-250, etc.  Do I just make it simple for the civil servants and put down "Lapua" and "Winchester" under Name and Address of manufacturer or do I tell the truth and say I manufactured the ammo? 

Also what about reloading components like powder and primers?  I'm sure I'll have to have them on the form. Yes-No?


Centerfire Discussions / Re: 22 PPC
« on: January 20, 2010, 08:23:09 PM »
Gene Beggs down in the States developed the .220 Beggs(.220 Russian case with a different shoulder/neck radius to stop abundant brass flow) to do the same thing as the .22-100 ppc.  Basically no case forming, use Lapua brass, turn the necks a touch and go shoot. 

There are a couple of them here in Campbell River and the one with a new bbl shoots very,very  well.  I built mine for a gopher gun on a used bbl and with 50gr Opel varmints it will shoot 3/8" consistently.  Nobby Uno has the reamer.

Do a search on Benchrest Central for more info.


Centerfire Discussions / Re: Participation
« on: January 11, 2010, 05:00:55 PM »
You want to talk about getting more participation in BR shooting, well we've been trying to do exactly that for the last three years at the Campbell River Gun Club. 

Three years ago we decided to build up a BR section in the CRGC.  There was a core group of guys who liked to shoot groups and thought we would like to have matches.  Dennis Tipper(VP) and myself started to put on monthly "BR Fun Shoots".  For prizes we gave the winner 1/2 the relay entry fee.   We thought that we had to have it "FUN and CHEAP" in order to bring out new shooters.

The CRGC has a number of separate ranges so utilizing the 200m or the 600yd range for our matches did not put anyone out.   We soon had interest in shooting longer range so we fixed up the 600 yd covered firing point and started to hold all our matches there.  We built 10 heavy steel tube legged/plywood top benches and started to have a variety of short range and long range shoots.  The idea was to have informal fun shoots so that we would attract new shooters and then get them hooked on shooting little bitty groups, and then move on to regular BR matches.

We started out with a Factory class and a Custom class, no restrictions on scopes.  Factory was just that, gun bedded, trigger adjusted.  Most were varmint rifles.  Custom class was anything goes but rail guns.  Most Custom guns were rebarreled factory actions on BR stocks & aftermarket triggers, with the occasional full custom actioned BR gun.  Most guys had old Witchita, Caldwell, homemade or sandbag rests.  We had between 5 to 14 guys showing up, the most at our Turkey shoots.  Well, soon an unintentional arms race started, and the newest BR guns were cleaning up Custom class.  So we created a third class, Custom Factory.  A factory action that could have everything done to it.

We shoot 10 relays/class, all at the same time.  If you shoot two guns, we put up two targets at the same time.  We shoot a variety of targets, from BR group targets at 100, 200 & 300 yds, Hunter Bench score targets, Marmots for score and group at 200, 300 & 500 yds, Black Death, typewriter, circles for score, Dart board, one shot for specific position targets like gophers, crows, grouse, etc.   After a couple of years, we tried easing into a 5 shot - 5 target 100 & 200 yd BR format, but guys did not like it.  We had two shoots with that format, asked for suggestions and were told overwhelmingly to go back to the old multi-target format.  Guys liked variety, fun, and informality.  Sounds like a male sexual fantasy.

Now, most guys shoot 2 guns.  There are BAT, Stiller, Swindlehurst, Nesika, Witchita, Angel, Hart actioned custom guns.  Lots of Rem 700 Custom Factory guns and a whole multitude of Factory varmint rifles.  Sinclar, Witchita, Caldwell, homemade and a JJ rest.  No joysticks yet.   We've modified targets and improved our logistics so that we can start at 10:00am and be done at 3:30pm, with a free lunch thrown in as well. 

We get 9 shooters average every month with 5 being the core ones every time.   I would say that of the 25 or so shooters that come out to our shoots, 5 of them would come regularly to shoot a "normal" BR format.  That's out of a 370 member club and a draw area of approx 90,000 people.  Also, the CRGC has a long history of International Rifle competitors.  We've sent rifle shooters to the Olympics, Bisley, National and other International competitions for over 40 yrs.  The BR section profited $1800 for the CRGC last year.  So what does the CRGC want?  5 guys or 9 guys, average, shooting once a month?  The group shooters will have to travel or shoot on another day to just shoot groups.

Some do's and don'ts-
-Do not post your best targets on the range wall for everyone to see after the shoot is over.  People look at them and think, " I'm not going to bring out my Savage .223 gopher gun to shoot against these guys!  I'll look stupid." 
-Limit factory guns to max 24x scopes.  Most people have 6-24 or so varmint scopes on their factory varmint rifles.  Its not really fair to shoot a 24x against a 36x all other things equal.  Make it a fair competition equipment wise, with everyone evenly exposed to the uncontrollable variables.   
-Don't have boring targets.  Have lots but make them challenging.   Everyone likes reactionary targets.  I tried bringing in some Tannerite, but got stopped at the border.  Made up some BP incendiaries.   After the shoot is over I put out full pop cans, water filled milk jugs, clay birds, etc, at 300-500 yds. Everyone has ammo left over, so we let them blast away for free & have fun.  We're making up 120 steel gopher swingers so that we can have a Vancouver Island Gopher Shoot.  Charge $20 and shoot all day at gophers out to 600yds.  Maybe new shooters will come, meet some of the BR shooters and want to come and try BR.
-Have small coaching sessions during the shoot.  Talk about reloading, calibers, gear, wind flags, wind switches, light changes, mirage, etc.

I'm about done.  Two finger typing is a long process.  The down and dirty is that there is a very, very small % of people that want to try and shoot little groups all the time.  So, you have to attract the larger # of semi-precision type of shooter who shoot factory varmint rifles, identify the real accuracy junkies, let them shoot your best gun and then they're hooked.

There's always more ways to skin a cat, and that's one use this forum will be good for.  Disseminating info.  Thanks Rick, good job.


Centerfire Benchrest Fun Shoots

@ Campbell River Gun Club’s Argonaut Rd
600 yd Range

2010 Shoot Dates
(2nd Sunday of the month)

January 10
February 14
March 14
April 11
May 9
June 13
September 12
October 10
November  14
December 12 -  Turkey Shoot

Factory Rifle, Custom Factory Rifle and Custom Rifle Classes

100yd to 600yd - Depending on the weather and how I feel

Shoots start @ 10:00 am, variety of BR and other precision targets

10 relays each class, $2/relay - winner gets 1/2 the relay entry fees

Schedule subject to change

For more information and confirmation of shoot

Ph Greg @ 250-338-0483 or E-mail -

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