Author Topic: All this talk about powder....  (Read 9762 times)

Offline SpencerC

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All this talk about powder....
« on: February 14, 2010, 12:33:57 PM »
Makes me wonder about what all you BR guys use for scales? I hear the Prometheus is just about the best on the market, but at over $1200 it "tips the scales" to the wrong side... So, what are you guys using and what do you think is the most accurate for the money?

Offline cyanchycki

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Re: All this talk about powder....
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2010, 01:07:49 PM »
SCALES SCALES SCALES.........

Well at home I use a RCBS beam scale.  It is the simplest form in the 5-0-2 model.  

For loading the bench gun I use my Harrell powder dispenser.  I have never checked powder weight when loading for it but just when I first started using it to get me in the ball park.  

With all the talk on benchrest central about charges being consistent and the trend towards weighing charges I decided this year I will verify my dumped charges with a portable digital scale.

I did not spend the hundreds that many talk about needing.  I spent enough to give me a decent reading.  I lucked out that the digital scale I bought mimics my RCBS beam scale.  They read identical values.  If I put 29 grs on the beam the Jennings reads the same.  Does it mean the scale I bought is perfect.  Hell no.  

I bought the Jennings scale from Canada Weigh out in Vancouver.  It is the JSVG 40.  It is small and compact and so far apears to work for me in testing.  I just have a bunch of spare batteries with me.  I figure I have played with it enough that I have a method that works for me with this scale.

Here is a link http://canadianweigh.com/scales/jennings-jsvg-gem-series

Calvin
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 01:15:37 PM by cyanchycki »
My house is protected by the good Lord and a GUN............
When I Die I don't wanna go Sober..................................

Offline SpencerC

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Re: All this talk about powder....
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2010, 03:22:26 PM »
They look good, and they have a readability of .05grns. I also saw one on there called the Mack 20 precision, claims the same accuracy for $15 less. The thing I can't believe is, they have a 20year warranty! Seems to be a really good deal.

Shooting a .223 in F-class, even the slightest deviation is going to drop me a point the farther back we get, and if I only use a scale that claims .1grn accuracy, in reality there could be a .2-.3grn difference between all my ammo, and that is not desirable. I am on a mission to see what kind of accuracy is attainable with my current setup while upgrading some of my reloading components and it seems a good scale is definitely in order.

Offline RJohansen

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Re: All this talk about powder....
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2010, 05:39:31 PM »
Most guys I've seen and myself included don't bother with a scale at the range when a match is going on.
You will hear lots of guys talking about 50 clicks or 52 clicks or whatever their measure uses. We use precision powder measures (Harrell, Jones, Culver style, etc) loads can be weighed at home and then fine tuned at the range on the day. (up or down a few clicks) though a lot of these small electronic scales are showing up lately re MTM  Hornady etc.  you would have a very hard time proving to most that .2 tenths of a grain makes a viable differance on the target ina PPC or BR size case. And when you are talking larger cases than that then a bigger differance will be tolerated. Say .5 grains in a .308 case. Its nice to have it nailed down and I suppose it will raise your confidance level but reality says the condition plays the biggest variable so .2 tenths means more in your mind than on the target.
 Randy

Offline Tony Gauthier

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Re: All this talk about powder....
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2010, 07:55:11 AM »
I have been wondering about it. I don't think I have a scale accurate enough to produce any better loads than my Harrels does already. That is not saying I am throwing perfect loads, just need to spend a lot of money on a scale. Looking at Jackie Schmits groups his weighed charge of 31.4 gr. is definately better than his thrown charge, but one group doesn't really tell the story. I have an RCBS 1010 and don't trust it. I also have a cheap digital and trust it less than the 1010. I am thinking of getting the new Hornady auto charge and try it at the range under " normal bench rest loading conditions ". I still believe in loading at the match as have seen too many changes in loads during a match. Others I know come preloaded and don't seem to have a problem. I am sure this is a debate that will go on for a long time.

Offline cyanchycki

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Re: All this talk about powder....
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2010, 08:26:07 AM »
Its nice to have it nailed down and I suppose it will raise your confidance level but reality says the condition plays the biggest variable so .2 tenths means more in your mind than on the target.
 Randy

Randy you are probably right in your above comments.  I do know that I do not have the experience or trigger time to know but if it is something that will help me with my mental confidence it is worth a try.  It may take a few extra minutes at the loading bench but it may be worth it.

I know attending a major US match will help as well but I really feel I would rather go to visit Gene Beggs down in Texas and work 1 on 1 with him in the tunnel.

My house is protected by the good Lord and a GUN............
When I Die I don't wanna go Sober..................................

Offline DanO

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Re: All this talk about powder....
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2010, 09:32:32 AM »
This area is one of the big variables in tuning our rifles.
We hear that more and more folks are going into methods of
making each charge the exact weight. In our game is that truly
going to made a noticeable difference on paper?
In our minds it does, if we did this in the same case over and over
it may very well take care of this variable.
BUT we use many different cases and while most strive to use the same
weight of case at +/- .2 of a grain, the internal case volume is the variable
we can not control easily.
So have we real made our load(s) any better? Measurable on paper?

I have tried several tests shooting groups of 5 shots to see if I am able
to see a measurable difference by going up and down .1 grains at a time.
Please understand this was done with N-133 in some very decent outdoor
conditions in the early morning.
What I found in these experiments, was that I was not able to see any measurable
change in groups until I was making changes of 3 clicks on the powder measure.
In no way should this information be considered a comprehensive test, but I do recommend
that if you have the time, you try a similar test to see what you are able to see.
Those who have rails may be able to get better data then I did with a bag gun.

We have all heard from the better shooter in the world, conditions play the biggest
part in our group sizes. I for one would love to be able to tune my loads to shoot
groups in the mid 1's, and know what and when to make changes to stay there.

Anyway just one persons perspective on powder management.

Offline SpencerC

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Re: All this talk about powder....
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2010, 11:06:48 AM »
Thanks for the replies guys, I do appreciate it!

Offline K Hope

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Re: All this talk about powder....
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2010, 06:44:31 PM »

A friend of mine, Harold Miller, wrote an excellent article for Precision Shooting called: On the Value of Velocity Tuning. You may have already read it.

http://www.brunswicksportsmansclub.org/files/OnTheValueOfVelocityTuning.pdf

In the article he refers to some published  Vihta Vuori  information on powder temperature and how this can move you out of the sweet spot. Interesting.

The last while I have been doing a lot of reading on the different characteristics of powder and there is a lot to read….  I haven’t figured it out yet. 

Tune: An art or a science? 

Ken




Offline SpencerC

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Re: All this talk about powder....
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2010, 07:51:13 PM »
Good read. So the group size isn't effected as much by powder charge when in the sweet spot as it is when in sour spots. Now the challenge comes in finding the "sweet" spots and being able to stay in it during weather changes and if you get into a sour spot, how to correct to get back into the "sweet" range. It would obviously be easiest to find these spots if you have a rifle capable of the accuracy needed to get the data and plot the graphs, my equipment is not at that point yet.

Offline Tony Gauthier

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Re: All this talk about powder....
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2010, 08:03:26 AM »
I did an interesting test with my rail gun last summer, using different powders. All tests were with the same bullet, primer, and case. All test loads were thrown on a Harrells measure, not weighed. Powders were H322 extreme, Benchmark, and S322. All were done with no change to seating depth.
Benchmark - I never got a group that didn't have some vertical in it. I went from 47 cl. to 49.3 cl. and the best was a 1/2 bullet vertical. Now if that was the best powder I would have played with seating depth from there and likely found a tune. But that was the only one close changin 1/2 clicks on the measure.  If I did find a seating depth that worked it would be like balancing razor blades ( as Mike Ratigan calls it).
H322 showed the normal tune window with a second node 1 to 1/2 clicks higher.Not bad and I have used 322 long enough to be able to keep it in tune. But then I had to try the S322 that I had 8 pounds of. Started at 49 cl. and went in 1/2 click intervals to 51 cl. before I got anything that had any vertical. That means almost a full grain of powder variation is staying in tune and hitting in the same spot on the target! The cheapest scale or measure out there probably would be accurate enough to make everyone in benchrest rush out and by the latest great deal on a cheap loading tool.
Now this is a nice problem to have, but as with any great component, will eventually leave you with salty soup. (crying in your soup for you Calvin).
You hear about it all the time, someone gets a few pounds of a powder or a few hundred bullets (that are no longer made or available) and there is nothing like it. I bought this powder from a former bench shooter who gave me a deal because it was faster than the previous lot and nobody liked it. I don't even know the lot number as they bought a bunch of it in bulk and divided it up into used 8 pound jugs.  I am only guessing when I say S322, but it is black and came after GI322 so is likely the Scottish made powder. I have enough of the same components to shoot one big match this year. It is locked up in a safe place and will be given a grand fairwell party in Kansas City next fall. What better place to use up a great Hodgdon powder than at a range within a few miles of where it originated? And yes Calvin as soon as the unlimited shoot at the Nationals is over all Canadians can watch me eat a bowl of very salty soup!
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 08:14:58 AM by Tony Gauthier »

Offline cyanchycki

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Re: All this talk about powder....
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2010, 04:24:40 PM »
I think you will be fine Tony when you get playing with the NEW 8208.  If it works as well as testing has been showing things should be okay for you.

My house is protected by the good Lord and a GUN............
When I Die I don't wanna go Sober..................................

 

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