Benchrest in Canada
BR Discussions => Centerfire Discussions => Topic started by: duceman on February 19, 2013, 02:07:49 PM
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i know i am a newbie in this benchrest community, but i am constantly perplexed why everyone is so eager to send their hard earned money across the border, when we have great barrel makers here in canada.
ron smith is a legend on both sides of the border, ted gailard(spelling), and a newer guy on the block, bob jury in red deer alberta, all support the canadian economy with their earnings.
i own a lilja barrel in .25 cal, and it shoots great, bought it second hand.
my latest barrel is by bob jury, chambered 6br, 10 gain twist, and shoots great.
fouling is almost non existent as well, indicating that he knows how to leave a bore finished.
perhaps if we supported more local business, more guys would step up to supply us with our shooting needs; barrels, actions, components, etc.
just my .02 cents, lee
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My thoughts, and not something against our Canadian manufacturers. I like to think I am still fairly new to the game and learning every time I go to a match.
For me, it is wanting to have tried all the top barrel makers be it Canadian made or American made. I have shot Ted's, and Kreigers. I have some Bartleins and MacLennans to try that have not been chambered. I also want to try Shilen, Hart, and Lilja. Why? No reason in particular. Just something I need and want to do for myself. If I did not have a dozen barrels sitting in my locker I would be ordering some Lilja's to try.
As a side note I believe over the last 4 or 5 years the 2 Gun winners at Selkirk have shot Ted's barrels. My 2 2-Guns were shot with Ted's barrels. I currently have a HART barrel on my 223 that I am really impressed with. Do I wish I had a Dozen of them, OH YAH. I can't wait until I get it bedded into the Shehane Tracker stock I have to see what potential it may have then. I have more confidence in it at the present than I do my bench rifles.
Being realistic, we have choices of where we spend our money be it Canadian or American.
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good discussion guys. my intent was not to slam guys for choosing what ever product they want; another great reason to live in canada is free will!
as a small business owner, i go out of my way to support local and other small business every day. i will pay slightly more for the same type of product; to support local, provided it does the same job.
when i hear stories of 6 weeks to a year and half wait times for products, add on the border hassles, (which i don't think will get any better in the future), it would seem to me that supporting local means even more.
perhaps with more business inside our borders, some talented folks making shooting supplies as a hobby could ramp up to a steady business.
i'm sure american makers appreciate our money, but keeping out money in the country will only benefit our own economy in the end.
i'm not sure if bob jury makes the large diameter you are looking for, but i would sure make a quick phone call.
to get info on jury barrels, contact bob galloway at custom gunworx in rocky mtn house, lee
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just checked my invoice, my jury barrel cost me $400 and tax. lee
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I may say things that are going to pee people off but remember we are TOUGH behind a keyboard.
Lee, do you shoot short range BR?
For a few of us Canadians who want/would like to be the best in this country it is not about buying Canadian made or supporting Canadian it is about taking full advantage of what is out there to help us get there. Yah I will never be a HALL OF FAME shooter or will I? I can count on my hand the Western Canadians who actually travel outside of there provinces or even Canada to better themselves at the sport. We choose to use the components we do or who we decide to support. This is NEVER going to change. There are those that dabble in the sport, then there are those of us who eat, breath, sleep Bench Rest. I do. Yes, I have no life outside of it. It is my passion and my number 1 hobby. I tell everyone, if it does not have ti+s, involve whiskey, or go bang, I am NOT interested.
Getting back to the Canadian thing. Why then is a jug of 133 $100.00/8lb jug more in Canada than the US? As a matter of fact why is most powders almost $10.00/lb more in Canada than the US? I am not endorsing anything. It is just a question. It is cheaper for me to go to Phoenix to shoot not taking any reloading components buying them down there, using what I need, and leave the rest behind. Yes I should support our economy but I bust my butt for my small paycheque and I will spend it where I choose. I would rather have the extra money in my pocket rather than anothers.
I am getting off topic here.
Back to barrels. Who is Jury? Never heard of the man. How long has he been making barrels? What is his resume? The little I have heard he has just started making barrels?????
See I have this thing about paying top dollar for something made or done by someone who is GREEN. I or someone may be willing to try a 6mm 13.5 twist barrel. If he is new at this barrel making thing, like I said above I am reluctant to give a newby the same kind of money than someone who has been at it for years. I do know that MacLennan has been making barrels longer than Gaillard. Ted actually learned what he knows from Rob and many calls and conversations States side with some pretty good machinists. Actually even some real good machinists in Manitoba.
Bottom line Bench Rest is the pinacle of the accuracy game and NO ONE wants to leave anything on the table so guys will spend where they choose. That will never change.
Now back to the original post. Mr. Richard is placing a Lilja barrel order, if ANYONE is interested contact him.
and
YES
I have been called a butt hole many times and will be called that just about daily the rest of my walking breathing time on this planet.
JMO
Calvin
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Just a bit of context before people get wrapped around the axle on barrels:
First, I have met Bob Jury and visited his shop. He has not been making barrels very long, but he is serious about making good barrels. There are a number of us with his barrels on order and will be able to try them this season. It is nice to have another Canadian vendor of barrels to say the least.
Second, Lee (Duceman) will be in Rosebud's BR101 this year and we look forward to his participation. Lee has been around the accuracy game for some time, and I am sure will bring some much needed new blood to the game.
Now back to the Lilja thread!
Rick
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hey calvin, you'll never hear me call you a 'butthole', especially after internet conversations!! that bridge can only be crossed in real life meetings. i really hate eating crow, but will if need be, so alot easier to base your opinions on face to face than the interweb, where all forms of context are gone forever.(ask jefferson)
i look at all you veterans as mentors, i admit to stealing all the info and knowledge i can for free from you when your not looking.
i wish i was in your shoes as far as living the dream shooting full time, hopefully some day.
i do spend all my waking hours thinking about shooting, but only get to play when i'm not forced to chase the mortgage payment.
as far as powder prices go, we're getting screwed, plain and simple. correct me if i'm wrong, but there are no canadian manufacturers for powder any more, are there? i know i stock up when ever i get the chance in the states as well, same as a lot of things,there is no reason for such a price differential.
i'm not a short range bench shooter, but gonna test the waters and see if it turns my crank. right now f-class has got a hold on me, and i figure anything i can learn in the accuracy game will benfit no matter which discipline you choose.
best 100yd agg so far is .557, i don't think you guys need to worry about me taking your trophies at the shoots.
i'm getting comfortable at 500 now though, with a 3 group agg last weekend of .337. i find it much easier to shoot tighter at longer distances, unless your gonna throw some wind in the mix. that is my next curve, i figure my equipment and loads are well ahead of my ability now.
now that rick has done a better job of introducing you to bob jury, perhaps a little more research will help you to consider some of his work. i would venture a guess that neither rob, ted, ron, dan, or any other barrel maker came out of the womb with the knowledge to make match winning barrels, probably were new at some time as well.
thanks for kind words rick, i'll see you guys at the range, lee
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Can someone come up with a comprehensive list of Canadian Barrel Makers and contact info? These guys are the best kept secrets in Canada.
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The Canadian Barrel makers I know about (I generally use Ted's barrels and they have been very good):
http://www.angelfire.com/blues/shootingpaul/gaillardpricelist.html (http://www.angelfire.com/blues/shootingpaul/gaillardpricelist.html) -Ted Gaillard, Sask (306)752-3769
Ron Smith, Alberta, (403)631-2405
Rob MacLellan, Ont (705)526-2159
http://www.riflebarrels.ca/html/mcphee_barrels.html (http://www.riflebarrels.ca/html/mcphee_barrels.html) - Mick McPhee (.30 Cal), (250)376-7886
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Here's a question.
How long does it take for the Canadian barrel makers to get a barrel done?
I once ordered a barrel a decade ago from Rob McLennan that took two weeks and another that took over a year.
I recently grabbed a Gaillard from a private exchange only because he had it for sale.
I heard McPhee doesn't sell just a barrel and he must install it or nothing.
Don't know about Ron Smith, but I also heard he use to work for McLennan long ago.
Would love to buy only Canadian as I've done well so far with most Canadian barrels, but some were real poopers too including some new American barrel makers. It's disheartening to spend money and wait almost a year to find accuracy mediocre at best.
It has become much simpler to just buy a Krieger, Bartlein, Broughton, Hart.
Time will tell if another barrel maker can make it happen and yes I'll support it.
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Call me a dabbler, I have a life outside of Benchrest. I have only used Ted's barrels and they have been excellent. Its the convenience of dropping a money order in the mail and the barrel shows up in the mail. No import B.S.
Also, Canadian barrels are not mass produced. The barrel maker spends the time and effort to produce his best barrels and somebody like me puts a tuner on it. Some guys could have the best barrel in the world and not know it because they can't tune and they can't shoot.
D.C.
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Just to clear up what Ive read on here.
Ron Smith never worked for anyone, he is a self taught barrel maker and built his rifling machine about 1964 and has made many improvements. He produced gain twist and striaght twist barrels in most calibers. He used a single point cutter and makes them out of both chrome moly and stainless steel.
Many people here in the west and in the USA are very familiar and happy with his barrels.
It always amazes me that many Canadian target shooters dont have knowledgew of him or his work.
Maybe some of you guys should give a great Canadian barrel maker a try and see for yourself what you might be missing.
I support the idea of Canadian made and in this case they are second to none.
He has a wait time right now of about 2 months for a barrel blank.
If your interested give him a call at 1-403-631-2405
SST
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Tom,
Do you know if Ron laps his barrels? I am under the understanding he doesn't.
Rick
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Rick, he doesn't lap and believes that single point cut rifled barrels don't require lapping.
I'll try and explain his reasoning:
If a barrel is buttoned there is stresses introduced as the button is pulled or pushed through. Resulting in high and low spots withing the bore. Thus lapping is required to even out the tight spots that are there as a result in that process.
In years past he used this process, and was unhappy with adding stress to the barrel.
He then returned to cut rifling and found that there was a very controlled removal of steel without adding any stress to the barrel.
He has found out that he can cut the rifling so that there is about a half-thousandths choke breach to muzzle, which he believes helps keep the bullet seal solid.
One thing he does in gain twist, which was only done many years ago for black powder guns and was sort of forgotten. A-lot of people think this is useless with modern guns, but many people who shoot long range high power guns have found that barrel life is noticeably longer, some have reported that they get from a third to double the shot count. Ron believes that its due to the fact that there is a reduced pressure start and less bullet slippage then a straight twist barrel. (Which he also makes.) Less torque on the rifling at the breach end.
His answer to people who ask about ``lapping`` is if a barrel is made the right way there is no need for it. And its not a shot at other barrel makers its a conclusion he has come up with after making many thousands of barrels over the last 49 or 50 years.
Many wont agree with any of this, but some of those should just try one and see for them selves.
SST
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hey tom, thanks for chiming in. if i'm not mistaken, aren't you the fella that won a match or 2 with a barrel ron made from rebar?
i had a bit of a chuckle with the notion that ron took 'training', and another one in regrard to lapping.
i've only been to ron's shop a few times, and only bought 3 tubes from him, but the 'experience' that overwhelms you when you walk in is awesome. i still remember the look and and response i got when i asked him about the lapping!
let's just say your response was a lot more 'political'!
i am trying to verify, but i believe that bob jury took some training from ron.
as a side note, it was also pretty cool to see targets on the wall of ron's shooting ability in the shutzen game. i aspire to match some of his iron sighted targets with my scope, lee
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As I understand it Tom the reason barrel makers still lap cut barrels is due to hard spots in the steel , which seems to be the biggest complaint of barrel makers and top bench shooters alike In the last few years( they all complain that the steel is not as good as it used to be ) .it is more pronounced when pulling buttons but still can have an effect on a single point cutter. Twist on a button barrel is never dead consistent the trick is to find the spot where the rifling is either steady or preferably speeding up ,ie a gain. The other big deal for button barrels Is proper stress relieving. Not as big of a problem with cut rifle barrels but some of the top barrel makers in the U.S still stress relieve and lap after the rifling is cut. I think there are many things that go into a top performing barrel . Every barrel maker seems to have their own recipe , learned from many years of experience. At the end of the day how it shoots in competition is all that counts for us in Benchrest.I have tried barrels from most of the "top" barrel makers in Canada an the U.S and one thing is for certain when you find a truly "hot" barrel cherish it, enjoy it and do your best to look after it because when it finally burns out you will miss it and drive your self crazy looking for another.I have not tried one of Ron's barrels as of yet probably because I have not seen any of them in the short range BR lists.doesn't mean any thing other than no ones probably tried them out yet , I am always on the hunt so would be willing to buy a couple and shoot em to see how they do . By the Best way to get the word out for our barrel makers is to get and compete.everyone wants the stuff that wins !
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SST,
That is interesting. Yes, being from the east you hear stories about the west.
I've never seen a Ron Smith barrel and as a result no good or bad results from any competitors in F-Class.
I'm new to BR short range so I'm clueless about Ron's barrels.
So, it was Ted Gaillard who worked for Rob McLennan then. Thanks for setting me straight.
BTW, I've heard good results here in the east about Ted's barrels from competitors and everyone from the east has tried or know about Rob's barrels. He got a cut rifling machine a few years ago, but I haven't had a chance to sample one yet.
I'm still not clear about gain twist though. I always thought that it reshapes the rifling grooves on the bullet as it speeds through the barrel with a progressive twist rates. I need to see someone do well at a match with one before I'm convinced.
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Lee, I am the fellow with the re-bar rifle barrel, and it has shot some incredible groups which was a pleasant surprise with what was done a joke for a match at Raton NM. I was lucky enough to win a few BR matches and events with it. And was surprised that there was a story about it in the Persision Shooting magazine last march. Some claim that article was the reason for the magazines death.
The shop at Ron's is a real eye opener for most first time visitors. Some of the bench rest target are truly incredible, but what I still am amazed at is the off hand Iron sight target shot at 200 yards being 10 shot groups under 4 inches.
A shooter that loves and understands or wonders about the inner workings of a barrel can easily enjoy a visit with Ron and is welcomed.
A few people have trained / learned the art of barrel making in his shop and anyone is welcomed to come and stay and spend time in his shop, Bob jury being on of them.
Pesky, I wont get into a long thing about lapping single point cut rifled barrels, as most people order gain twist which are impossible to lapp. Most of his are approximately 2 to 1 in gain ( 18" to 9" for example).
You are absolutely right about stress relieving steel, all I will say is there is many ways of stress relieving metal for machinabilily and neutralizing steel.
Ron practices one of the methods which work for him.
SST
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Tom,
have seen the rebar barrel article. When you say have won a few matches and events with it, what classes and events are you shooting this in? Thanks.
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Only three ways to stress relieve that I know of. Heat . Cryo. And VSR . Normalizing is a different deal involving heat but at lower temps than stress relieve or heat treat . If there is another way to remove stresses from stainless I am very interested in the process and would greatly appreciate any info. I think gain from 18-9 is more for f class and would not be suitable for the short range game something like a 15-14 may be more appealing to the short range guys.
Thanks
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not to stir the pot any further, (although i seem to be doing a good job so far), if you think about the mechanics of lapping, to try to remove 'high' spots in a barrel to achieve a concentric bore, you would have to be one talented mo fugger to remove a few ten thousandths at various spots along the length of the bore.
and to just run a lap continuous for the full length will only accentuate the problem, there is no way to lap over the high spots without washing out the low spots even further.
tom, you may have a better grasp of what i'm trying to say, if you are able to make it more clear, feel free, lee.
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I said self, stay out of this. I get AWFULLY tired of tippy toeing around to try and not offend. Knowing me I cannot.
I say EVERYONE has an opinion. Even our Canadian and American barrel makers have there opinion about to lap or not to lap. Cut rifle versus Button rifled. When stres relieving should be done. Do we Cyro Freeze.
Etc Etc..........................
Bottom line the choice is up to the individual maker and consumer of what they want. For me it has NOTHING to do with supporting local or not. I buy what I want be it Canadian or American made.
I would really like to see all our barrel makers tossed in a rubber room and see who comes out on top?????? LOL
Maybe I can bring some immigrants into Canada and start Hammer forging match barrels. ??? ??? ??? Labor would be cheap.
Machinists are very set in there ways, opinions and practices.
JMO
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JMO, your absolutely right! Makers are very set in their ways, not unlike shooters I guess. If someone hasn't won in their discipline of shooting with a makers barrel there is no sense trying them.
But as you said the best way to be is to get what turns you on and your comfortable with.
Each and everyone of us has our own querks, which is good. Its what makes this sport of shooting interesting.
Why I stepped in on this thread was to add a alternative to what most appear to be using.
Just in case someone wants to step up and try something different was my point.
Having fun is what its all about.
tom
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Tom I don't get it. Help me connect the dots. You come on here extolling the virtues of Ron's barrels and then basically say we are sheep for not trying them. Pretty much everyone in here is an innovator looking for the next great thing in the world of precision. It would be helpful to tell us where you won these matches and what classes you had success in, before you suggest we all roll the dice on Ron's barrels. I think this is only fair when you are the one suggesting we spend money on these barrels, then chamber them, then drive hours cross country to test them in competition. Seems fair to me, how about it?
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RP, yes I'm a believer not only of Ron's barrels but cut rifling and that's only my opinion. No different then others believing in what they use.
What I was trying to convey is that until a person tries different made rifles they may be missing what their in search of.
Because I like most are in a constant search for the holy grail in accuracy. Ive used at least 100 barrels from various makers including the big name companies.
Ron's barrels are just another one of those opportunity that many in short range bench game have not tried.
I'm not calling anyone sheep, but what I'm saying in all shooting disciplines of the shooting sports, most competitors copy the most successful.
But I do know that their are a few shooter in every group that are willing to experiment with something different ( thinking outside the box) so to speak. And at times these types of people become the most successful in their game.
Which brings me to the re-bar barrel I shoot it in the schultzen game which is BR an off hand shooting with single shot falling block guns, cast plain base bullets and smokeless powder at 200 yrds. Both scoped and sights we also shoot 22 rf at 100 yards
I wouldn't even think of trying a high power cartridge in a piece of re-bar so its pretty limited to that sport. Ive shot it at the Stars and Strips range in Spokane, Sherwood park AB, Raton NM. I have limited time to shoot but try to get to a few shoots every year.
And it shoots better then I can.... 200 yrd with slow lead bullets teach a person about the effects of wind.
Again I'm just letting people know to the best of my knowledge about Rons barrels.
sst
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Tom, with all due respect, as you clearly are an experienced shooter and have a well known track record, your success with Ron's barrels in cast bullet BR and Schutzen may not translate well to short range BR using high power cartridges and jacketed bullets. As you note Ron has been making barrels for 50 years and has made thousands, he clearly has found a niche in the cast bullet matches, and kudos to him for doing it. However, sometimes the sheep know something.
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Very interesting!!!!!!!!!!!!
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RP, your possibly right, but to clarify 90% of Ron's barrels are made for jacketed bullet shooters. I know in the past 2 or 3 years the long range shooters 800-1000 yard and the 1800 yard shooter have discovered the barrels and more and more are going that way.
And they possibly not what your looking for, in your discipline of shooting. I just wondered if anyone has tried one and hoped to get some
feed back about it.
I'm absolutely sure your right about "sheep" knowing things! I would believe that in search of accuracy the "sheep" have tried every thing there is available.
If nothing else this thread was interesting, with many points of view shared.
I was not knocking anyone! And I'm sorry if that's what anyone felt it was not the intent.
I just wondered why no-one has ever talked about it on this forum, which Ive watch for a while now.
It would be nice it some of the shooters would post a thread about what they use; barrel, action, chamber, brass, powder, primers etc. so some of us
dummy's can see whats used in this specialty discipline.
Years ago played with both a sand dog and desert dog, which I think are predecessors for your sport.
sst
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I go to about 1/3 of the fullbore shoots at the Homestead range west of Calgary and have yet to talk to someone who is using a Ron Smith barrel... I don't survey everyone, just the shooters I get paired with. I placed 4th in FTR at this year's provincial competition so I'm not on the utter fringe of things.
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BobR, I'm don't know many of the shooters by name, but a couple are Dale Janzen, a fellow named Jackson..
Any of them ring a bell? I just see their names on barrels as they go through the shop.
Any of them any good? Ill try and get back with a few other names.
Tom
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Been shooting Benchrest since the early 80's and with the exception of one or two Hart barrels have used only Ted's or Rob's barrels and found them more than adequate for my needs.I would put them up against any American barrel out there. Just remember, a good barrel in the hands of a poor shooter won't bring home the bacon as you all know.
As far as Ron Smith's barrels are concerned, I never heard of him till this thread or were he has his business.
Just my thoughts,
Murray
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Easy to find out what guys are using Tom .equipment lists are usually posted for all the big ( and small ) shoots.
I've yet to see a Ron smith barrel on an equipment list at a shoot I've attended , again Doesn't mean they won't work just means no ones using them. Lots of krieger and bartlien .
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BobR, I'm don't know many of the shooters by name, but a couple are Dale Janzen, a fellow named Jackson..
Any of them ring a bell? I just see their names on barrels as they go through the shop.
Any of them any good? Ill try and get back with a few other names.
Tom
Given they didn't compete at any Fullbore matches at Homestead in 2012 - can't comment.
cheers,
Bob
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dale, bob galloway, and myself are all hoping to hit at least 3 fclass matches there this year. lee.
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Last year I was shooting a factory rifle from savage. I've got a couple barrels on order from Ted and am planning to accurize a couple of Remington's to compete with. I'm looking forward to this year as well!
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Well I'm on the east coast ,N-B and I also started making barrels single point cut rifled , playing around with 6mm right now and making tooling for other calibers 22, 30cal, 7mm and 6.5 in that order.
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good for you, are you doing it as a hobby with full time job, or are you in balls deep? lee
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duceman I'm just getting started in this so it will be on the side until I can get busy enough to do it full time .
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that's great j-c, wish you well in your endeavor, lee
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I've shot a bit over the years and have fitted and fired quite a few barrels. The first Ron Smith barrel I used was for a Hunter class rifle which I barreled in 1978. This was a chromoly barrel and I contoured and fitted it to a Remington 700 action. The rifle shot well and I believe it did hold the Canadian 100 yd hunter record briefly. The barrel was straight, consistent, and quite smooth for an unlapped, cut rifled barrel.
I have used only one 6mm Smith barrel on a light varmint rifle and it was competitive although there is some question as to whether or not I am. I have used the barrels on F class rifles with good results but I do lap them.
Interestingly enough, the straightest, and most consistent barrel I have ever had in my lathe was a Smith. I scoped this one and there was not a single visible tool mark in the barrel. In fact, I called Ron and asked if he had decided to start lapping his barrels. He denied this. I told him to make all the rest of my barrels just like that one.
John Howard used Ron's barrels on his fullbore rifles and enjoyed great success with them.
FWIW, My best barrels have been Harts. I have also had good results from Shilen, McClennan, McMillan and Sherer. The most disappointing barrels I have used were Lilgas. I presently have BR rifles with barrels from Hart, Shilen, and Gaillard and a hunter from Ron. I have F class barrels from Douglas, Smith, Hart, Benchmark, McGowan and Shilen.
Benchrest shooters have never been too adventurous when it came to making a barrel choice and I don't blame them. Barrels are not cheap and it costs time and money to get them installed and to see what they can do. Short range BR is an exacting sport and there isn't a lot of room for experimentation if one wants to be near the front of the pack. Regards, Bill
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Sorry Bill , that may have been true fifteen years ago and I wouldn't know because I Wasn't shooting br then,but today I would have to disagree with you . Having recently shot with some of the best short range br shooters in the world I can tell you these guys experiment and test and retest everything constantly and never stop looking for an edge no matter how small ,(bullets , barrels ,triggers, stocks, scopes, brass , powder you name it ) as for barrels ,the bottom line is the reason you don't see any other barrel makers listed is because after all that exhaustive testing ,you take your best stuff to the big matches ( meaning the other stuff did not make the cut).these guys test batches of barrels now , just like batches of jackets the steel varies from run to run .consantly on the hunt for the best . There will be three br shoots at rosebud this year Bill it would be great to see you out there , the more competitors the better . And it would be great to meet you
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These guys test batches of barrels of the same make (whatever their favourite maker may be at the time). The reason they test batches of barrels (this assumes their pockets are deep enough to allow such testing and re-inforces the idea that the winners buy their way in; a contention with which I disagree) is that nobody is able to identify exactly what makes a good barrel vs a great barrel. If a barrel is perfect in all identifiable respects, it may or may not be a great barrel. If a barrel is obviously flawed, it may or may not be a turkey. It may be assumed, however, that a barrel which is straight, consistent in dimension, and smoothly finished, has greater potential to be exceptional than the flawed barrel.
Now, I have to say, I disagree with the practice of not lapping a barrel and I believe lapping may well be the most important step in producing a great barrel. Until this final finishing touch, the barrel is only potentially great. Some barrels may be good enough before lapping but they are likely to be better afterward. Also, a mediocre barrel can be improved to where it may achieve greatness. Nonetheless, I am willing to accept an unlapped barrel if I think it is basically sound because I can always lap it myself. If it doesn't work out, I have only to look in the mirror to lay blame.
I am also convinced that while most rifling configurations are just a demonstration that most anything will work well, there are configurations which are better than others for good, practical reasons.
I don't believe there is a great deal of difference between cut and buttoned barrels. Many years ago, I was quite convinced that buttoned barrels were somewhat more consistent but the ascendency of Krieger barrels over the last fifteen years or so puts the lie to this. Their practice of honing prior to rifling and lapping subsequently is a large part of their success and the guys doing the lapping should be well paid.
At one time, Ed Shilen figured that barrel straightness was immaterial as long as the barrel was not so crooked that fitting and chambering was difficult. The thing is, it doesn't take much of a curve to create a challenge when trying for a BR quality chamber and Shilen has, in recent years acknowledged this and begun straightening their barrels during manufacture (I assume this is done after drilling but prior to reaming as this makes the most sense from a machining standpoint).
Ultimately, one has to feel he is getting what he paid for and when barrels are getting into that 400 dollar range (thanks to market interference by the US State Dept. Free enterprise, my ass!)one would hope that the necessity for trying out a batch of barrels would be a memory.
I'm hoping this is the summer our campground will take care of itself a little better and allow me to shoot a bit. We'll see what happens. I just don't have the time I need to have! Regards, Bill
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Used to be most barrel makers were buying from crucible Since They got put under by one of the by auto makers .barrel makers have been buying from two other steel companies , The general feeling is that the steel is not as good and seems to vary from run to run.(some barrels are going "off" in as little as 300-400 rounds ) the flavour of the day seems to be Bart's and kriegers with a few shilens for good measure, there are also some other brands but they don't seem to be as popular . However we are always testing most of the brands out there at any given time looking for a winner .the deader the better is what you will hear a lot , meaning no weird stresses and harmonically dead . Lapping is also important as you said Bill . But the best lapping on a stressed barrel will not shoot . Stress relieving on the button barrels has also been an issue in recent times . Also a consistent twist rate on the button barrels varies from the hard inclusions in the steel so where to cut them off is important. Cut barrels don't necessarily have the twist issue the inclusions will show up as a possible tight spot . That's where your dead on about the lapping on these Bill , good lapping helps them
Deep pockets won't
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Deep pockets won't automatically get you a win. You do need competitive equipment . But it takes the whole package to win. That means being able to tune the rifle and read the flags . The best rifle with a hummer barrel won't win if it's poorly tuned and you make bad decisions on conditions , alternatively an average rifle will probably not win no matter who shoots it because about 10% of the rifles at the big shoots are wearing hummer barrels and are in the hands of good shooters .
Hope to see you at one of the shoots this year